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| Where’s the Christian outrage? |
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| Written by The Rev. Ruben Martinez / For the Tracy Press / | |
| Friday, 18 April 2008 | |
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A local reverend, fed up with the direction he sees society taking, points out a Planned Parenthood clinic going up in town.
EDITOR,
Several years ago, when Fry Mortuary Chapel decided to build, it included plans for a crematory on the corner of Schulte Road and Central Avenue. Neighbors raised their voices against this, and the owners had to find another location for the crematory.
One block from where I live, Planned Parenthood is erecting a clinic, but where are the voices against this? I do not know the procedures as to who, why and what has to be done for someone to establish a business, but where were the “Christians” in our City Council when Planned Parenthood applied to build? Did they say anything about this?
I do not know if they plan to perform abortions at this location, but I still will raise my voice against it, because they will probably counsel women to go to one of their clinics where they do abortions.
I, for one, am tired and, I guess, outraged at what is happening in and to our country. A high school in Arizona gave out condoms to the seniors and juniors at the prom. The cry we hear is, “They are going to have sex anyway, so let it be ‘safe’ sex.”
Why not include a fifth of whiskey or some drugs? They are going to do it anyway.
I just hope and pray that others here in Tracy will lift up their voices for what is going on, not only here in our city, but all across America.
— The Rev. Ruben Martinez, Tracy
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(197)
 written by newsflash , April 19, 2008
Typical archaic out-of-touch kneejerking. Yeah, of course, I'm a dyed in the wool liberal so I just LOVE Planned Parenthood, but seriously: what is wrong with providing anonymous STD tests and treatment, pregnancy tests and counseling -- PP is NOT an abortion factory -- as well as a range of other pre and post-natal services to people who need them, no medical insurance required? Would you deny health care to people in need of it? That's what banning or opposing PP is doing.
 written by melly , April 19, 2008
I'm a Christian who believes that our youth shouldn't be having sex before marriage. So far I have both of my older kids on that path. But they know to come to me if that path was to change. Some kids don't have this type of support. Where do they go for couseling? Where do they go to make sure they are protected? In a perfect world we'd all wait until marriage, but it's not perfect. As Christians we need to understand that we aren't going to reach everyone. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Rev. Martinez, as a Reverend maybe you should see this planned parenthood as a place for you to reach out to the lost. People who are walking into your church are already looking for God. People walking into planned parenthood looking for birth control, condoms or maybe an abortion may feel like it's their only hope. (I'd also like to note not everyone who uses planned parenthood is unmarried and looking for condoms or looking for an abortion) Instead of fighting this place use it as an opportunity to reach out and show God's love not only to the individuals walking in and out, but to the world. That's what we, as Christians, are called to do first and foremost.
 written by disgusted , April 19, 2008
I can't say I agree with all of the Reverand's comments, but I understand the outrage. I have researched Planned Parenthood in the past and they DO encourage abortion. Perhaps a better name for PP would be Planned Abortion. I agree with "melly" that we should raise our children to wait until marriage, knowing that they may make a mistake. But the unborn child should not pay for the mistake. Adoption is a great solution with so many couples who cannot have children. There is an organization in Tracy called Crisis Pregnancy Center that encourages mothers-to-be. Did you know that there is a very high percentage of pregnant women who change their mind about abortion once they see the baby on ultra-sound? When you see the heart beating, it's hard to deny the baby as a living person. Let's save the unborn children and support an organization that helps the mom and the child. Another note: there are strong emotional consequences for a gal who has an abortion. An article recently was out about a young woman in another country (don't recall which one now) who committed suicide after feeling forced to have an abortion. Going through with the pregnancy is healthier for baby and mom. PP just can't stand up to this standard.
 written by realist , April 19, 2008
yeah, it would be soooo much better to have more unwed underage pregnant teen mothers out there with diseases...lets be realistic, keeping the clinic out of town is NOT going to keep teens and unwed people from having sex...are the christians so opposed to this willing to fund centers for unwed mothers? help out with food and clothing and care? you'd rather see them in line at welfare than getting birth control? how backward can you get?
 written by Steve Reshakis , April 19, 2008
Planned Parenthood does pay for Abortions, and they promote Abortions, and they protect the Identity of the Man even if he is of Adult Age and The Girl is under-age ( this is called stautory Rape, yet Planned Parenthood willingly commits a crime when the withhold or even hide the Age and Identity of the man.
A reverend is a leader of a Flock, if he feels outrage, let him get off his soft behind and walk his whole congregation over there and protest with a sermon about the Sanctity of LIFE. take a look in that Bible you have pastor, I'm sure you can find a few scriptures to support your beliefs! do you serve God? or Man? Ruben set the "Example" You have the Authority under heaven now find your Cajones Brother. Jesus would do as Much.  written by Pastor M. , April 19, 2008
Pastor Martinez,
A piece of information that does not invalidate your point, but might reflect on your research. Fry Memorial Chapel did, in fact, build their cematorium on the Schulte and Central site and they use it regularly.  written by B-dub , April 19, 2008
http://www.plannedparenthood.o...n-4260.htm
I just looked at the Planned Parenthood website and nowhere did I find that the organization promotes abortion. Unless I missed something in my reading it appears that they give the pregnant person options from which to choose. It seems to me that you're always going to find that people do not think of the possible end result when having sex. Becoming pregnant and carrying that child full-term is sometimes a novelty for the pregnant person because "I'm going to have a baby". Who's going to pay for that "baby"? Most likely the taxpayers who are you and me. Maybe an abortion IS the correct thing to do, maybe it's not. I do not condone abortion nor am I against it if it's done in the right situation. Pregnant by rape, for example.  written by Bill Johnson , April 20, 2008
Typical fundamentalist Christian BS! This is the same attitude that has contributed to such topics as blocking stem cell research. Way to go Pastor Martinez, anything to contribute to the suffering in the world, right????
 written by amy , April 20, 2008
Interesting that this Reverend Rueben Martinez is not familiar with "Planned Parenthood". Should have done his "homework" before he voiced his opinions on the "center"?
 written by scott hurban , April 20, 2008
Homework on Planned Parenthood? It's founder brought the clinics into existence primarily to insure the elimination of what she considered "inferior races." As many African American preachers will testify ( they did in San Francisco) they have done a good job of it. I have read her writings first hand.
With the exception of atopic pregnancy where the mother and child would die if not aborted, abortion is unneeded killing innocent life. Therefore, it is never right! I have a friend who is the product of a rape and now teaches locally. Thank God her mother didn't murder her. There are many of us willing to open our wallets and our homes to take care of babies without their mothers having to kill them. Stop using this argument about the taxpayers as an excuse for murder. written by scott hurban , April 20, 2008
A typical pro-choice woman trying to silence men when it comes to killing their kids. Your absolutely right though. If I had the ability to take that choice away from you and my father who forced my mother into an abortion, I would!
written by scott hurban , April 20, 2008
May God have mercy on Margaret Sanger's soul for the blood on her hands and for all who follow in her footsteps. This is not the time for compromising words when we face such evil.
 written by Kathey , April 20, 2008
How sad that our society has not progressed very far. Reminds me of the human sacrifices that our ancestors took part in, where they sacrificed children to Baal. Very sad indeed. BTW, it takes a man and a woman to participate, d. So a young man already reduced those young ladie's choices. Let's see: welfare, welfare, or welfare. She did that herself? You think, d???
 written by Kevin Whitaker , April 20, 2008
They are giving condoms in the public schools and abortions down the street. Sounds like our tax dollars are well spent on public schools and "Pro-Choice clinics"??
Wonder if the public schools take credit for the drugs that freely flow through their systems too?? Once they took Christ out of the classroom and this strange world has gone off in a handbasket... written by B-dub , April 20, 2008
Hurban should know that Margaret Sanger was born in 1883 and died in 1966. Back in the day, thinking like Sanger's was a norm so you can't fault her beliefs because the majority of the people thought the way she did. (1st Amendment right) The people who make up Planned Parenthood today take a more different approach according to their website. I, for one, am for pro-choice but I do not agree 100% with PP. I believe it is the woman's right/choice to have an abortion if the situation allows for it. There are teenagers in our high schools who are pregnant who do not have the ability, financial/psychological, to care for a child. They are going to see their friends out having fun while they're at home with an infant. Soon the grandparents will be "obliged" to watch the child while their daughter goes out with her friends. Soon this will be an every weekend thing. So, if you're true to your word Hurban, open your wallet so taxpayers won't have to and while your at it, leave your house key under the doormat.
 written by d , April 20, 2008
We live in America where there is choice and guess what....
It is LEGAL and the LAW! Go back to your Cave Man Days!  written by Unbelievable , April 20, 2008
Do you really think Planned Parenthood is going to point out everything wrong with their organization on their website? Come on people!! Wake up. They are NOT a good organization, they promote abortion, and are totally anit-family. We all know that. Planned Parenthood has been forever surrounded in controversy. There are plenty of pregnancy resource centers out there that offer the help these people really need, healthy life-giving choices. It's ironic when you zealots speak of choice...try to remember that a HUGE percent of those same pregnant teens your speaking of, and I mean a HUGE percent, had the CHOICE to choose NOT TO HAVE SEX to begin with, hence avoiding the whole teen pregnancy issue all together. But because of their poor choice a baby has to suffer? That's the kind of thinking that is wrong with the world. People get to choose to be careless and "have a choice", the unborn infant doesn't get one. Sad,sad state of affairs. Really.
 written by vqc , April 20, 2008
Families can discuss and promote abstinence. More importantly, families should communicate and promote honesty, respect and responsibility. Abortions, adoptions and condoms are legal. Planned Parenthood provides clients with data on all options. If you are a caring and compassionate parent, you have explained to your children you do not expect they will ever require the services of Planned Parenthood. And hopefully, they won't. But if they should ever find themselves either unable to abstain or as a parent to be, let's assume they will come to you for condoms or for counseling. But not all families follow in your foot steps. Some adolescents and some adults require the information provided by Planned Parenthood.
written by B-dub , April 20, 2008
Ok, I'm done laughing now. Unbelievable speaks of teens who engage in sex had a "choice" to choose not to have sex. You're 100% correct. They also have a choice on abortion. Whether it be in a hospital, dr's office, clinic, whatever, they have the choice. I do not want to support (meaning my tax dollars) a child I had no part in creating. That may sound insensitive to some but others will agree with me. I'm not condoning every teen to engage in sex, become pregnant then abort the pregnancy. Their parents have a responsibility to inform their children of their responsibility in raising a child. It takes a lot of money to raise a child nowadays but I would rather see my money go to my children and my grandchildren. If NOT having an abortion is ok with the pregnant person, their family etc then by all means carry it to full-term but by golly be prepared to raise that child on your own without the help of taxpayers who had nothing to do with the child in the first place. You speak of teens having the CHOICE to have or not have sex, we're also speaking of our CHOICE to have or not have an abortion well.............we have no CHOICE to decide where our tax dollars are going. If we did have a choice I would choose for my tax dollars to not fund people who choose to have kids who cannot afford to raise them.
written by Bill Johnson , April 21, 2008
The ironic thing here is that all of the whiners complaining about the “poor infant” are more than likely the same people who will complain years later when that infant grows up to become a criminal because it had no parental guidance….
written by Bill Johnson , April 21, 2008
Great job fundamental idiots (oops I meant Christians....sorry!!!)
written by scott hurban , April 21, 2008
Well, Bill Johnson, you certainly are a follower and believer in Margaret Sanger. Talk about a premptive strike! Kill them in their mother's womb so they won't grow up to be criminals. You do Sanger proud. d, it was savages and pagans who murdered their children in ritual sacrifice for their own selfish reasons. When will you come out of the cave? The slaughter of Jews was legal in Germany too. Therefore, it must be right, right? Slavery was also legal. therefore, it was right according to you.
written by B-dub , April 21, 2008
I don't want to bash this subject into the ground but at this time abortion is a legal choice for those who opt for it. Everyone is going to have an opinion on this subject whether it be for or against. Sure, you can go to PP for advice, referrals, or birth control, but you can also see your private physician for same. Sanger might not be everyone's choice for "human of the year" but you have the choice not to visit the clinics she founded.
written by Bill Johnson , April 21, 2008
Hey Scott,
You are funny! The bible supports slavery on numerous occasions. Paul of Tarsus even admonishes slaves to be especially good to their Christian masters in Ephesians. Other passages that endorse slavery in the bible include Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:7-11, Ephesians 6:5, 1 Timothy 6:1-4. As for the murder of children, wasn't Isaac about to kill his son Isaac just because of his ridiculous faith in God? Did Jepthath not burn his daughter alive as an offering to God for victory against the Ammonites in Judges Chapter 11? I guess your God didn't like her as much as Isaac to spare her now did he? If that's not enough, we can talk about The Crusades or any of the other hundreds of counts of Christian murder recorded throughout history. Let me ask you this, how does it feel to believe in a hypocritical religion????  written by Mark Davis , April 21, 2008
I tend towards a more evolutionary view of ethics and morality. Clearly religion does not have a stellar record, whether we are talking about the birth of fascism with the Catholic Church, the Crusades, modern Islamic terrorism or the Inquisition. Yet, there are similar totalitarian tendencies in Communism, etc. The urge to power is perhaps the universal tendency among those examples.
So, given that historical examples are remarkably bad, what would we like to see moving forward? Racism and religious or ethnic discrimination are unacceptable in a fair society. Sexism and homophobia seem unacceptable as well because there is little reason why we should discriminate against people because of who they are or chose to be within the scope of lawfulness. Likewise, the decisions of young women to manage contraception and sometimes end conception should strike a reasonable balance between the rights of the woman and those of the proto-child. We have that balance currently and the reasoning behind it was based on rights and law, not on history or religion. That strikes me as a good, modern balance.  written by Common Sense , April 21, 2008
The bible is fiction. Jesus is a cartoon character.
If you are able to make up your own mind without being forced into it by some silly comic book like the bible, or by those morons who believe the crap in it to be at all factual, then go ahead. But at least use your own brain, and quit basing all your life decisions on what you've learned from fairy tales.  written by Dave Hardesty , April 21, 2008
Scott
This is just a personal question for you and you alone. I know you are Christian and a follower of Christ. I believe you know the same about me. OK, now the question. In that Christians are followers of Christ, which also means we should be attempting to act like him as much as is humanly possible, how do you believe Christ/God himself would respond to all of this were he at your side this very moment, given what he instructs in Matthew 25:31 to the end of the chapter, and Luke 6:37 – 49? I just wanted to know your understanding of these scriptures is all. Thanks Dave Hardesty Thanks Dave Hardesty written by scott hurban , April 22, 2008
To Bill Johnson. You show that a little knowledge is dangerous. Read all of Scripture and you will see that is no supporter of slavery. Paul is saying there is more important things than are station here in this world. That we should be more concerned about our ultimate destination. Go to the Old Testament and look up Jubulee and you will find that slavery was never met to be a permanent condition among God's people.
written by scott hurban , April 22, 2008
Dave,
There are times, most times, when we are to speak in truth and love. There is, however, tough love. Jesus displayed this when he called the Jewish leaders "white washed tombs full of dead man's bones" or when he cleared the temple. John the Baptist, the greatest of all prophets called the Jewish leaders, " a brood of vipers." The point is that sometimes you have to get rugh to open people's eyes although it should not be the normal way of dealing. In this case people are suggesting that killing innocent life is a human right. I think harsher methods are needed to reach the blind, don't you. written by scott hurban , April 22, 2008
To Bill,
To those who hate God and Christ, How is it to live without hope? To see life as a curse that will end, in your opinion, with darkness like you never were. Does this comfort you? Each day is one day less. What joy this must bring to those who hate their Lord. I have experienced God's love and seen miraculous things. I shall never curse the darkness. For you I have sadness. for you there is no peace. written by Bill Johnson , April 22, 2008
Scott,
How do you know that I live without hope? I find great hope, satisfaction, and love in everyday of my life, but I also understand that one day it will end. I do not find it necessary to lie to myself or to my children with fairy tales to find comfort. Life is what it is and I am OK with that. As Mark Twain once famously said “I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit". As for the subject of slavery, wouldn't Paul have been better off saying it is immoral to treat anyone like farm equipment? And so the hypocrisy of the bible lives on.... written by Bill Johnson , April 22, 2008
BTW Scott,
"You show that a little knowledge is dangerous." If you'd like to debate scripture, I will shred you. Trust me you haven't spent the time studying it that I have..... written by notnice , April 22, 2008
You guys should know you never, never, discuss politics or religion. Now shake hands and come out friends.
 written by Common Sense , April 22, 2008
Scott, what miracles have you witnessed? And don't say child birth or someone you know overcoming an illness. That's nature and medical science, not miracles.
How about you Jesus freaks refrain from sexual intercourse and visits to the doctor and drug store. A miracle then would be child birth and recovery from an illness. Then you can tell me about the powers of your silly god. What a total douchebag you are!  written by beam me up scottty , April 22, 2008
Scott,
Those who support war are no better than those who support abortion. Christ condems both. Ther are no just wars just justification for war. You have stated before that there are just wars according to some catholic bishop. Christ would support no killng. Remove that log from your eye. written by scott hurban , April 22, 2008
Bill Johnson. Sorry I don't trust you nor do I wish to waste my time getting into a shouting match. Have any of you ever tried to understand the hate you have for Christians and Christianity?
Let me give you one miracle, which you won't believe and you will call me a liar. There was a man where I worked whose wife was diagnosed with stomach cancer. God told me to tell him that his wife would be cured from cancer in one week. As soon as I told him that, I thought I was crazy. Every day he would come to me and thank me. It was like a dagger in my heart, because I really didn't believe it would happen, but I told him to thank God and not me. A week later he took her to the doctor and the cancer was gone! It was all God and not me. There have been several situations like that in my life. It doesn't happen every day. In fact it is very rare, but it happens enough for me to know the truth. There are many people of high intellect, much smarter than me, who have challenged the Ressurection and eventually admitted it happened. Read,"Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. I know you probably won't, but I am obligated to try. By the way, unless you have the Holy Spirit, the Bible will remain a mystery to you. Ask for His help, if you dare and can get past your hate. written by scott hurban , April 22, 2008
Beam me up: How do you explain all the wars in the Old Testament? Especially the ones the Lord told the Jews to engage in?
 written by T.Brown , April 22, 2008
I agree wholeheartedly with Scott. One thing that hasn't been mentioned though, is that God gave man free will! Thus, the wars, slavery and such that you are all arguing about, are to some extent, man's free will.
written by Bill Johnson , April 22, 2008
Scott,
While the story you have just mentioned is indeed touching, and I am glad that you have seen good things in your life, that DOES NOT for one minute in any way validate Christianity as truth. I could ask for anything to happen and the odds are pretty much always 50/50, even if I prayed to Buddha or Joe Pesci or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please try to understand that I do not hate you or any Christian but I find it very difficult to condone a religion that encourages people to stop searching for the truth in the name of dogmatic belief. Also, I would be more than obliged to read the book you mentioned. I'll tell you what, I'll read that and you can read The God Delusion by Professor Richard Dawkins or Breaking the Spell by Professor Daniel Dennett or God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens. Do you have the courage to read one of those? Probably not, like most Christians you would probably dismiss the book as evil and continue on in ignorance, oblivious of the damaging evidence against your feeble belief. For instance, you mentioned there are many scholars who are “much smarter than you” who believe that the resurrection happened. Did you bother to ask yourself if there is one shred of non-biblical evidence that supports this? I’ll save you the trouble the answer is no. Matter of fact, with exception of basically Josephus (Who’s writings have been proven to be forgeries in many cases), Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger there is almost no evidence to prove that Jesus even existed at all. If you’d like to keep going on about evidence I’d be happy to oblige…. written by Bill Johnson , April 22, 2008
T. Brown,
You bring up an interesting point about free will that I would like to comment on. In his book, Atheism: The Case Against God, George H. Smith makes the observation that the idea of an omniscient God cannot be reconciled with any idea of free will in man. In other words, if God knows the future with infallible certainty than the future is already predetermined and man is impotent to change it and there is can be no such thing as free will. You are either going to Heaven or Hell and God already knows which.... written by Bill Johnson , April 22, 2008
Note to Scott:
Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger do not write of Jesus by name but rather they refer to an individual known as Christ, Chrestus, or Christus. This simply means “the anointed one”. written by notnice , April 23, 2008
Isn't it great that our Constitution's Bill of Rights gives us the right to practice our faith. Scott Hurban is a believer in Christ and Bill Johnson appears to be atheist but both have the right to say what's on their minds without fear of reprimand.
written by Bill Johnson , April 23, 2008
notnice,
I agree with your point that it is nice that we have come far enough along as human beings to disagree in a peaceful manner at least here in the United States. The problem I see is this; Even with the soft, spongy, cherry-picking Christians we see in America today, the religious text that Scott holds sacred as the divine word of God still, on numerous occasions, promotes the killing of blasphemers and/or non-believers. So essentially if someone really believes in the doctrine of Christianity as it is plainly written (I realize Christians have a million excuses or interpretations on this fact), there can be no live and let live, can there???? written by scott hurban , April 23, 2008
Bill,
I will be happy to read these books. I have read Ayn Rand, Karl Marx, Hitler, Sartre, Nitche and a myriad of atheist thinkers. What's one more. I have also read the Qu'ran. I am in the minority in regards to other christians as to the view of a God who is all knowing. Not that I don't believe god is all knowing, but my definition is different than most. I believe God knows all that is knowable. What is not knowable is the free volition of humans. Created in God's image, they have free volition. In much of the Old Testament, God is taken by surprise. You think a woman having her cancer disappear in one week was a 50/50 chance!!! The Bible says, if a man would come back from the dead, they would not believe. Hitchens, you are right, I personally do not like a man who attacks Mother Teresa as a fraud, but I will read Dawkins. Isn't he the guy who speculated that life her on earth might have been brought by beings from another world when he was interviewed by Ben Stein? As far as miracles go, I have many more to share. Also, you are aware that it was christians that eradicated slavery in Britian and America, right? Evil Christians looked into their Holy Book and saw that men were to be free. Were christianity flourished or did in the past have been the areas were freedom found fertile ground. You don't see that in Islamic nations nor atheistic ones ( fascism and communism) written by scott hurban , April 23, 2008
Bill,
You ight look into the hundreds of authenticated miracles comiled by the Catholic Church. They are very pain staking in validating a miracle before they put their stampt of approval on it. Look at their literature and not what some atheistic journal says about it. Wasn't it you or someone else who called me a douche bag and many other insults. It's hard to keep them all straight, but this sounds like hate to me. written by Bill Johnson , April 23, 2008
Scott,
I hate to burst your bubble but Hitler was not an atheist. He was raised Roman Catholic and quoted his deep belief in god in many of his speeches. I will not claim to know everything that Professor Dawkins has quoted but I believe you may have him confused with Carl Sagan who had a plethora of strange ideas about extraterrestrial life. There is no denying that there are passages in the Bible that contradict each other, having said that I think you would have to grant that there are several passages that do condone slavery. I have listed several in a previous post, please feel free to check them out and let me know if there is some other way I am supposed to be interpreting them. I would also like to point out that I am not in total agreement with Mr. Hitchens regarding his outlook on Mother Theresa, but it is a well known fact that some of her final writings expressed serious doubts about her religious belief. That, I think, is an important indicator of her character. Moving on to the validated miracles of the Catholic church, is this the same Catholic church that moves pedophile priests from church to church and is now debating as to whether or not limbo even exists? I am sorry but they are not a reliable source of information. Don’t you think there research might just be a little bit biased? If you have any independent, non-Vatican funded research I might be in search of a stronger rebuttal but I don’t think you argument holds water at this point. In closing I would like to reiterate I do not hate you or any Christian as much as I am beginning to think you would like me to. I did not call you a “douche bag” nor do I think you are one, I believe that comment was posted by Common Sense. I prefer to not hurl insults, although my sarcasm has occasionally got the better of me, as I think insults tend to nullify whatever facts you may have included in your post. Hope that clears things up…. written by scott hurban , April 23, 2008
Ben Sein recently interviewed him. I have read Mother Teresa'e memoirs. While she went through times of struggle with her faith, she was deeply convinced of Christ's love.
Atheists always claim there is contradictions in Scripture. I have read the bible many times and in fact teach apologetics. I cannot think of a time in which Scripture was not taken out of context to come to this erroneous conclusion. This is why I am skeptical that you have actually read it through with an open mind. Yes, some bishops did seriously err in coverning up the sins of a small minority of priests and the Pope has taken them to task for it. However, this sin does not negate the scholarly study they have done of miracles and you know better than that. They are separate issues.Limbo was never an official position of the church but the musing of Saint Augustine in trying to reconcile problems with their concept of Original Sin. How hitler began and ended up are two different things. When I read Mein Kampf, I never so any indicators of religious faith in any traditional Christian sense. Stalin began as a seminarian but ended up a murderous atheist dictator and tyrant. Now, are you going to keep throwing things in hoping something sticks? written by Bill Johnson , April 23, 2008
Scott,
The same thing you just said about Mother Theresa can be said about Hitler. He WAS a Roman Catholic. The Pope used to honor his birthday every year. This is a documented fact, end of story. You are really reaching here aren't you. Can you please post a source for you comment about Richard Dawkins please? I am thinking that if an Oxford educated professor of science said such a thing it shouldn't be hard to find. Also, if you have read the bible so throughly how did you not realize that something so simple as the day Jesus was crucified is contradictory? Mark's account has Jesus crucified the day after passover, meanwhile John's says the day before. I don't know about you but I'd say that is a pretty big contradiction? As for the studies done by the Catholic church I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out they have covered up and claimed a great many things that just are not true. There are thousands of Atheist studies that show miracles can be disproved. Do they not put the same amount of effort into their research. Ninety percent of the Royal Society are Atheists. We are talking about the finest minds in the world here. Can the Catholic church say that about the source of their research? I didn't think so..... written by Common Sense , April 23, 2008
I had cancer a while back. I went to the doctors, did the treatments and finally had the cancerous cells removed. I am now fully recovered and haven't had any relaspes. It took some skilled doctors and a lot of medication, which was developed by several years of trials and testing.
Praise Jesus for this miracle! written by Bill Johnson , April 23, 2008
Scott,
I found some info on the Richard Dawkins comment you mentioned. You want to talk about taking something out of context....holy smoke!!! Thank God for such genuises as Dinesh D'Souza and Ben Stein...LOL!!!!!!  written by bob the builder , April 23, 2008
After reading all the comments of the morons (I mean right-to-lifers) I have only one question....
What address do I use to submit my donation to the local chapter of Planned Parenthood! written by bob the builder , April 23, 2008
One other thing, if the crematorium is up and running, isn't it convenient that Planned Parenthood is located nearby?
written by notnice , April 23, 2008
Hitler was a confirmed Catholic. He abandoned Christianity when he gained power. In his speeches he occasionally made mention of religion. Some of his higher-up officers were atheist, Bormann for one. Since he often spoke against religion, that lead some to believe that he was atheist when in fact, no one knows for sure.
written by Bill Johnson , April 24, 2008
Occasionally?.....
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922 In the Bible we find the text, 'That which is neither hot nor cold will I spew out of my mouth.' This utterance of the great Nazarene has kept its profound validity until the present day. -Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 10 April 1923 written by Bill Johnson , April 24, 2008
In the life of nations, what in the last resort decides questions is a kind of Judgment Court of God.... Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills.
-Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich, 13 April 1923 People ask: is there someone fit to be our leader? Our task is not to search for that person. Either God will give him to us or he will not come. Our task is to shape the sword that he will need when he comes. Our task it to provide the leader with a nation which is ready for him when he comes! My fellow Germans, awaken! The new day is dawning! -Adolf Hitler, 04 May 1923 It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God. -Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 01 Aug. 1923 written by Bill Johnson , April 24, 2008
We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk. -Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time written by Bill Johnson , April 24, 2008
Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933 And my personally favorite..... We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 written by Bill Johnson , April 24, 2008
So again....Hitler was a Roman Catholic...you are the weakest link....goodbye!!!!
written by notnice , April 24, 2008
People who have to "prove to others" that what they are saying is truth, to me, are a sorry lot. Why not just believe what you want and let others do the same? Trying to jam your belief down the throat of others only gives them a bad taste in their mouths. To each his own and this belief is mine.
written by Bill Johnson , April 24, 2008
notnice,
There is a difference between a truth and a belief. To me people who think their belief is truth are a "sorry lot". Why don't you just admit Hitler was a Roman Catholic. It's OK to be wrong... written by notnice , April 25, 2008
Bill......I don't give a rat's a$$ if Hitler was Catholic, Buddhist, Taoist, Jewish, Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness. I don't care! If it's so important to you to believe that he was, then so be it. He's history. He's so much the past. Get over it. You said "To me people who think their belief is truth are a "sorry lot". Well Bill, guess where that puts you? Sorry old buddy.
written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
notnice,
You have provided no evidence, referred to ad hominem, and plainly say that, "You don't care at all". Let me ask you this, why did you bother to post in the first place? You have made no intelligent contribution to this thread and have basically just lavished in the fact that you are contempt to be ignorant and create your own truth. Congratulations, what a winner you must be..... written by notnice , April 25, 2008
Bill, I read this thread from the beginning where you just bash Hurban for his beliefs. If you don't share the same beliefs as he you could have ended your rampage long ago. I don't enjoy watching people blast others for something they believe in. I didn't see Hurban retaliating against your non-belief of the Bible. Putting people in their place must come easy for you. As you can see from my name I, too, can be like you. Not that I'm trying to defend Hurban, I'm sure he can do that by himself. It's people like you, Bill, that keep turmoil a constant. You never came out and established your "belief" like Hurban did. Maybe you're embarrassed to say. I know you're going to ask so...I'm Christian but there are times when I don't exhibit the ways that Jesus asked of us. I'm not the turn the other cheek kind of person. I do pride myself in trying to be civil but there are times when that is difficult to do. This is one of those times.
written by notnice , April 25, 2008
Lastly, my "truth" is what I believe and nothing can make me do otherwise. And you know what Bill.......I am a winner. Have a good rest of the week.
written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
notnice,
Don't try to take the moral high ground now? What happened to I am a part of a "sad lot"! I am glad you and Hurban are content to believe in something so irrational. Good for you, but as I said before you originally came in here attacking the fact that Hitler was a Roman Catholic. You were wrong and I showed you some of the about 1,000 document quotes over a span of 10 years that plainly show he was. You have argued with no proof, ad hominem, and emotion. I could care a less if you think you can be "notnice" it seems everyone is an Internet tough guy nowadays. How about this for a noble idea, If you disagree with someone back it up with actual proof instead of refences to your crazy religion or by referencing the previous posts of someone just as delusional as you are....  written by Dale Cose , April 25, 2008 The thoughts of little Bill “Helmut head” Johnson and Little “Common Sense” here. “We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants.” Two writers denigrations vs. 'that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin "God who gave us life gave us liberty… I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." Thomas Jefferson "Only one adequate plan has ever appeared in the world, and that is the Christian dispensation." John Jay, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court "Without a humble imitation of the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, we can never hope to be a happy nation." George Washington “…that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” Abraham Lincoln- Gettysburg Address “…Good Luck! And let us all beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking.” Dwight D. Eisenhower- D-Day address to troops after reading your posts and finding them wanting, you two said or published anything comparable? … It's okay… I'll wait written by notnice , April 25, 2008
Hey Dale, don't wait for me. I agree with what you've posted. You're going to have to wait for Bill to peruse the internet for more of Hitler's speeches but I'm sure he must believe in God a little bit because he's carrying notes in his wallet that have "In God We Trust" written on them.
written by Dale Cose , April 25, 2008 written by Bill Johnson , April 20, 2008 The ironic thing here is that all of the whiners complaining about the “poor infant” are more than likely the same people who will complain years later when that infant grows up to become a criminal because it had no parental guidance…. A thoughtless argument for absolving one of responsibility both now and, assuming that the child grew up to be a criminal (like all kids do) taking no responsibility over his/her life in the future. Do you think about what you write or just get all emotional? written by Bill Johnson , April 20, 2008 Great job fundamental idiots (oops I meant Christians....sorry!!!) and we see by your use of addition repetitious exclamation points you really aren’t looking for anything but ego satisfaction. written by Bill Johnson , April 21, 2008 BTW Scott, "You show that a little knowledge is dangerous." If you'd like to debate scripture, I will shred you. Trust me you haven't spent the time studying it that I have..... I trust you to show a lack of knowledge is even more dangerous, an excellent job of making your case by castigating those with beliefs… can we assume you speak with the same venom about all the other religions? Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikh, Shinto, Hindu, Wiccan, Vegan, Liberalism, Communism, Atheism… quit slapping the monkey Johnson and think. written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
Dale,
I see you figured out how to cut and paste. Congratulations!!! Did you have a point??? The argument between notnice and myself was whether or not Hitler was an Atheist. Everything you have posted has nothing to do with that. I guess, much like notnice, you think your witty little remarks make up for a lack of evidence don’t you? Moving on, if you'd like to get into scripture and try to prove God exists, be my guest. I love making you Christians realize all that you really have is wasted faith in an error filled book! By the way brain child, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deists. Look that up and get back to me....LOL!!!! P.S. There has been significant debate that Abraham Lincoln may have been an atheist as well, but I guess you already knew that smart guy…. written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865). written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
Thomas Jefferson (emphasis on the orthodox) "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Abraham Lincoln "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." "Lighthouses are more helpful then churches." Benjamin Franklin written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.
-- Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J S Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln's death (Willie died in 1862 written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
We here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
-- Abraham Lincoln, closing the Gettysburg Address, according to the Nicolay Draft, one of two that he wrote on the day he gave the address. Neither draft contains the phrase, "Under God" (quoted from a photo of the Nicolay Draft, below). Delivered at Gettysburg on November 19, 1863 written by notnice , April 25, 2008
This post was originally about Planned Parenthood but Johnson has taken the subject and turned it around to religion bashing. If he wants to be a non-believer that's ok with me but I think he should try to stay on the subject started and try not to bash everything everyone else wants to have faith in. What you're doing is trying to get YOUR point across making your belief sound like the correct one. Who are you trying to convince? I think it's time for you to take your meds BJ.
written by Dale Cose , April 25, 2008 “I see you figured out how to cut and paste.” Thank you. I find it makes a great starting point when discussing somewhat thoughtless comments the small-minded tend to post. written by Bill Johnson , April 20, 2008 “The ironic thing here is that all of the whiners complaining about the “poor infant” are more than likely the same people who will complain years later when that infant grows up to become a criminal because it had no parental guidance….” Well written, ignorant, but well written. For the simple of mind, the Johnson thinkers the point would be- is it only Christianity that disturbs you so? You seem to have a severe hard-on for religion. My comments say the great men of American history included references to God that you find so abhorrent. “Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deists. Look that up and get back to me....LOL!!!! P.S. There has been significant debate that Abraham Lincoln may have been an atheist as well, but I guess you already knew that smart guy….” When you have more than conjecture, provide your own evidence to back up your comments, son… you made them. … and while you’re at it, reconcile your claims about deists vs. their references to God, you being the all-knowing dude. Back at you, slick written by Dale Cose , April 25, 2008
Poor argument regarding Lincoln. Change the final version will you?
In your other quotes, aren't you weaving around the word God? written by Bill Johnson , April 25, 2008
notnice, Why don't you just address the comment YOU originally challenged? What a loser you can't even prove your own thoughts! This thread got this way because high and mighty Christians, like you, act like there s**** don't stink and try to talk down to anyone who won't challenge their beliefs because of the respect barrier. I don't respect your religion, it's ridiculous, and now you want to cry that I'm bashing yo |
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